Hugh O’Beirne, President, New Jersey Cannabis Industry Association
Hugh O’Beirne is an attorney who has recently served as an Executive Vice President and the Chief Legal Officer of a publicly traded real estate investment trust. Prior to that, he practiced corporate and securities law with two major national law firms. Mr. O’Beirne is a long-time advocate for the legalization of cannabis and is an experienced investor in the medical marijuana industry on the east coast.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
[00:00:01] You're listening to Thinking Outside the Bud where we speak with entrepreneurs investors thought leaders researchers advocates and policymakers who are finding new and exciting ways for cannabis to positively impact business society and culture. And now, here is your host Business Coach Bruce Eckfeldt.
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[00:01:03] This is thinking outside the bud. I'm Bruce Eckfeldt. I'm your host. And our guest today is Hugh O’Beirneand he is president of the New Jersey Cannabis Industry Association. We're to talk him a little bit about what has been happening in cannabis. Just prior to covered it, we're going to talk a little bit about COVID 19 and how coronaviruses impacting things. And then talk a little bit about how this is really going to shape the industry. What is likely to happen both from a demand side, from an industry side, where we see some of these businesses potentially going what might be happening with regulation? Lot of fascinating things, obviously. You know, it's a horrible situation we're in with the pandemic impacting really worldwide. And so, you know, it's it's tragic what is going on. And obviously, everyone is dealing with it. And we want to kind of figure out what is this? How is this going to impact things? That's really the conversation we're going to have today. Obviously, a lot of this is going to be sort of speculative or at least, you know, making hopefully reasonably educated guesses.
[00:01:52] But I think I'll be the interesting one. And he was in a great position with his knowledge about the industry is insights into businesses, insights into regulatory dynamics that are going on and how that might play out. So I'm excited to have this with that. Hugh, welcome to the program. Thanks. Pleasure. Yeah. So why don't we do just a little bit of the things that you think are really kind of important, just leading up to, you know, we're recording this mid April here or so beginning of 2020. We had a lot of kind of changes in the cannabis industry, in the markets and pricing some of these companies. And, you know, there's a lot of flux, I guess I would say, coming into this. I would say, what do you think are the key things to know there? I think that's probably the first conversation we have. But before we actually dig into that, just a little sense of your background that you're involved in the New Jersey Cannabis Industry Association. How did you get into cannabis? What's been your kind of role in the cannabis industry today?
[00:02:40] Oh, I actually got involved with Kendra's advocacy in 1989 when I turned 18 and stayed involved with it peripherally through college. I was more involved in Massachusetts where I hail from. I didn't. Obviously, there's no cannabis legal regulated cannabis industry to be a part of at that time. So I had sort of a traditional Wall Street career. I was an attorney with a large Wall Street law firm and then became an attorney with in Atlanta, Georgia. I saw industries that I could be a part of that were subject to unusual or large amounts of regulatory activity. I found in those cases that when you see the public sector trying to grapple with something in the private sector that is permissible but troubling that there's a lot of interest to be had there. So I always thought to grow my MBA, maybe that went back to sort of my interest in cannabis as I thought that, look, our response has been criminal and insane, insane criminality in the United States for so long. And when I emerge, I eventually became a general counsel of company that and we went on the stock market. We sold the company and I came out bed. And lo and behold, that was December of 2015 when I came out of that world of a company world and looked around
[00:03:54] And the cannabis industry was starting to really accelerate here on the East Coast. And I'd been watching it grow its initial steps in the 1990s in California. And I really thought that that would be to two things. One, I think it's a it's a good thing. I think it is a public good that there is a cannabis industry and that there is a public acceptance for regulated cannabis, unqualified good that we have that in the United States. That freedom, I think, is good for reducing criminality. I think it's good for public safety. And I think there's also significant wellness goods that have been uncovered through this process that have very much helped a great many people in their day to day lives. So I thought, OK, this is great. The plant has proven itself to be far more beneficial than I ever thought back in 1989 or 1990. And I think that goes for everyone. But we get to this point. I got involved early in the Pennsylvania process in 2016.
[00:04:49] The first Pennsylvania process was a part of a license there for multi-state operator, where we were successful in that process, got very interested and, well, having to deal through a regulatory application process, a very intensive one, got really interested in how the public sector was starting to wrestle with this.
[00:05:08] Good. I guess it was good, but they didn't know quite how to go about or they weren't certain about how to go about bringing it in to a comfortable role in our communities. And so I was like, okay, great. I'm really interested in being a part of that. And to figure that out, I was asked by the founder of the New Jersey canvas industry of. Station in twenty seventeen. That way, as it was being formed to be a part of that. Local live in principle now for about eleven years, twelve years and have been involved with New Jersey matters and that I had cannabis experience in Pennsylvania. Some thoughts about it. Otherwise, I joined the board of the CIA in its inception in June.
[00:05:51] Of the seventeen, the founder went on to become to be tapped to be the chief of staff, first chief of staff for incoming New Jersey Governor Murphy, who had a definite cannabis agenda, very pro cannabis agenda, both medically and as well as adult use.
[00:06:07] And I was asked to take over the role of president and the goal that we had at the CIA was an interesting one. Typically, trade associations follow the trade. It's the trade that has come about or it's been in place and the industry associations kind of there to service the in-place industry well in the cannabis industry. The car's a little bit before the horse. We had a very small industry in New Jersey that was laboring under some really difficult regulations and we were about to open that up dramatically. So the idea was, well, let's have a trade association and understand that the role of the trade association is going to be sort of high level, industry focused advocacy, sort of how to regulate regulated in this would be our focus. And with that from the private sector that we hailed from, we would try and gather together the aspirational industry or the PD, those companies that would seek to be a part of New Jersey that have had experience throughout North America, who throughout all conversation with cannabis and very difficult for our minds. They're used to unitary markets. There's really each state has its own market, its own set of regulation that are players, even if the players have the same names, quite often behave and have a different places. So gathering all that together, the ideal is with Frank. It's just public stakeholders in their regulatory legislative process. Getting a gold standard moment to avoid the sins of past and the mistakes of other jurisdictions and learn from them and come up with something that could roll out ruefully.
[00:07:33] I think now that we're looking at a transition point for both the industry, the industry association and the state's market, I think that we can be very proud of the role that we've had and we very proud of the way the state has put into place the predicates for a great industry, but be annoyed by the fact that just, you know, life gets in the way. Things move far more slowly. There are far more other incidents and issues that come up that the reality is lagging behind the promise. But as far as problems go, I'll take that. We have a great medical law. We didn't get adult use done. No, but we will. And I put on that. We will get it done.
[00:08:11] And we've already did a really good test run of some really great legislation, not perfect regulation, not perfect, but finally perfect. Yeah, exactly right.
[00:08:20] So but we have really great trajectory here. Patrick Actory compels the future when that compelling actually sees fruit is what we're stuck with right now. And then, of course, two events started to happen. And I think we were getting a little bit at that.
[00:08:36] Yeah. Let's talk about the things you you have seen kind of happened the last several months, kind of leading up to the Tampa crisis that are really kind of affecting how things are playing out now. You mentioned kind of the know how the markets are reacting to some of the companies and the prices in the stocks. Give me a little sense of what you've seen about the last several months that has really kind of impacting what's happening today.
[00:08:57] Yeah, I think it's really import.
[00:08:59] I think many of the things that from an investor point of view are public. Public information point of view that people think about when they look at the national and even North American cannabis industry is driven by the phenomenon that took place last year before Prekop. And they're playing themselves out now. And I think what we saw that was it was off by two events that were not due to the industry of the market. So I guess let's set the stage. The overall marketplace has been robust and growing cannabis from a consumption point of view has been as predicted. Growing demand has been growing. At the same time, we had a poorly rolled out. Now, this is to blame. The public sector, primarily poor, roll out about adult use in Canada and a poor rollout of adult use in California. That created, I think, some noise as companies were starting. And it's those markets that those rollouts started to hurt, markets that were planning, that were hurting companies, planning for a more robust rollout. So by messing up the rollout road, delaying its full sort of surge, that's where these days we saw investors start to get the markets, the equity markets in Canada, U.S. companies, as well as Canadian companies were taking advantage of started to dry up. Right. Or really just start to say, okay, performance isn't there. It's not what we rejected. There was a turn away from that.
[00:10:11] And then that reality started to mean that companies found themselves at a lack of cash, sources that were used to going to for large expansion plans. And then United States and Canada companies really thought in terms of expansion and thought and investors thought in terms of the. Or marketplace or the more licensing that you have, Hickling constrained license, the more market share.
[00:10:33] That'll turn into and that sort of a proxy for the future value of the company. So companies were on these huge emanate tares. They were also applying every time there was an application going up, they found themselves all of a sudden in a situation where they had been expanding rapidly. The expansion hadn't been turning into operations in many places and in many places that they were expanding into. The operations were lagging behind sort of the premier adult youth market states or premier medical market states. And these were really place holders for the future expected growth as the world goes to adult youth.
[00:11:10] So the country goes to adult youth or loosens medical.
[00:11:13] But it's expensive. It's expensive place holders and the build outs are expensive. I mean, you got to worry about what you wish for or if you wished for a highly constrained market and you get one of the licenses there. Well, the costs of building anything out is monumental. And then when the cash that you've been used to or the equity that you're used to utilizing to underwrite your expansion goes away and you have a lot of overhead. You start to move debt and then that becomes sort of problematic. It's really sort of annoying because the same time you're seeing increases in revenue. Marketplace is a world lost in this new marketplace. And one line like like Illinois did massive growth. But it just goes to show that the previous way the companies were rewarded by investors for expansion has changed. And that kind of holding the bag and, you know, sales were growing and many, many, many places they had were so far over the skis that they're actually suffering quite a Cauvin comes. So I think that's that's what we're we're looking at some of the canvas turbulence in the industry and the industry names are having really a lagging effect of of that phenomenon.
[00:12:17] Now, we just have so many of these companies with going in to, you know, end of January, beginning of February with these kind of difficult balance sheets, you know, that operational costs are more than they anticipated. The sales aren't quite there. They're having to fund operations with available capital. And until that comes along and, you know, kind of upends the market, give us a sense of how you've seen the kind of confluence of kind of the financial situation, the market situation of these companies. Now, Jakovčić coming along. However, these forces or these these two confluence has come together to create the situation we're in now.
[00:12:49] Yeah, I think that that koban has turned out more or less to be a shot in the arm for the industry. Right. I mean, sales have jumped in many, many of the states. Consumer demand has been strong. Hopefully it will remain strong and everything. But who knows where we go with Cobbett? But what what gives? This is the two things that we want to want to say is very optimistic and hopeful for the marketplace in general. Is that in a down time, in economic panicker time that we see people are still buying cannabis and large amounts so far and so demand remains strong and in negative times, people will still go go there like alcohol sales, etc.. So that's a positive proof of putting that. That means that consumer demand remains strong. It is an Imane strong objective. If anything, it grows in the face of global efforts. All right. That's one. The second thing that is very helpful has been the response of the public sector. Now, the federal response has been second, for lack of a better word. I mean, cannabis industries have been Xed out the BPP program and other federal relief programs. Small businesses, right. Small business, long. And that's that that that is a problem. Hope is affecting the supply chain because it affects workers. Right. I mean, it causes fear and it makes it makes life difficult and more costly to operate from the supply side. Even though the demand side has grown quite, quite a bit. And that leads to headaches of a variety of sorts. But the states fundamentally and I think there's the proof of the pudding when this crisis happened. The states, at least with medical cannabis, said quite off with adult use.
[00:14:22] The states said these were essential industry and that we are going to stand behind them. And that was a big move. That was a big tell as to the public as well as political acceptance for cannabis in the community, at least in so far as.
[00:14:36] With regard to the realm of cannabis legislation, regulation, which is the states, that's impressive. And that should be heartening that there is this sort of robust support for the industry where it is present.
[00:14:49] How much do you think this is support of the industry in terms of seeing the importance of cannabis from a sort of public health point of view or a public important point of view versus, you know, revenue stream taxation point of view? You know, I own a lot of these states are looking at cannabis as being a big, big sort of cannabis. Cessation is a big source of revenue. I mean, I guess it would. What do you think the balance is between those or what do you think the motivating factor is and high stakes actions?
[00:15:11] Yeah, yeah. I think I'll go with our better angels on medical. I think I think with medical. Very few states have made out like bandits on medical taxation. You know, it hasn't been hasn't been a gigantic income generator lately on the medical side. And I think that the public. Sectors in these states have through having medical programs in their states and supervising those programs, both from a patient supervision point of view as well as from an industry point of view, actually recognize that. Yeah. Now, this is this is real. This is people are depending upon this for their help in large respect. And that's similar to what we see, what we're growing acceptance of cannabis among medical. So I think with the medical realm, that's clearly the case that states are doing it for the right of the adult use. I think that states there, we can take the cynical role and be like that. They are making money. And this is an area where, you know, just like alcohol, they tend to make outsized tax revenue, rather. That's fine. That's fine. It's also a concern that if you don't continue to allow the regulated market now, not all states have allowed the adult use market seat of Massachusetts, but there's been that. OK. Well, look, if we shut down that market, especially in the realm of cannabis, there's a gigantic still black market. So it's going to drive people into the black market, which is one retrograde and supported by point.
[00:16:29] But two is really bad for social. This is it, because one of the better parts about regulation in general is the regulated entities try to follow the regulations. Most of the French follow them zealously. Black market, not so much.
[00:16:41] So by having regulated cannabis, we know that people will be making purchases in a way where the entities are following the social distancing guidelines that are in place.
[00:16:51] And if you don't have that, well, you're not going to get as much that those sales are going to move to a realm that you can bet will not have the same type of Gobin prevention measures in place. So it's an older architecture, too.
[00:17:04] I mean, if people get back into the black market, then, you know, we're just gonna we're gonna unwind this and it's going to take months, quarters, years to kind of get it back to where it is now. So I think keep putting it.
[00:17:15] And also the also the adult use market in many states is very would be, I think. I think would be extremely sensitive to being shut down. It's already expensive if they don't also have a medical program. But it's also it's sort of extremely expensive to run the retail side. Right. Of cannabis in Canada, taxation, etc., being shut down for any length of time. I would really worry about the solvency of of the operations in those areas. And then if they go away, then, like you said, we've gone the wrong direction. We have put people into black market relationships that now we're going to have to entice them away from all over again for it for the states. I think it's a no brainer, right? It is a good thing to do both from Koban Protection and also for continuation of the program of eradicating the Blackmar. And it is also a lucrative goal in a time when most when you shut down the rest of sales, states are going to be hurt. So it's sort of a no brainer and a win win. I'm surprised. I was surprised in Massachusetts decision to to.
[00:18:15] We're kind of in this situation. Cannabis is declared essential business, essential service. They're staying open for the most part, you know, albeit with social distancing kind of requirements and limited contact and supply chain issues. You know, but it is it is open for business. Cannabis is open for business. How do you see this kind of playing out in the coming months, quarters in terms of some of the longer term impact on the industry? You know, from how the industry may be shaped, from a regulatory point of view, what might be happening? The economics that the businesses themselves, you know, capital markets. What are the big things that you would anticipate, you know, over the next 12, 24 months that are going to kind of change the way or shape the way the cannabis market plays out?
[00:18:55] Yeah.
[00:18:55] So I guess the assumption behind my responses entails that we're not going to be in a lockdown for many more months, that I don't know what happens, as if we go another month and a lockdown. Just generally speaking, in the US. But but let's say that we kind of come out. I'm not saying we're going first. So that's one. The other assumption is we're not going back to normal. So it's not like we're gonna turn on the go switch and everything's points out. What I have seen is the cannabis industry, by being being able to stay open in this context, has shown itself generally to be a responsible partner to a state in a time of crisis. And I think that that that really helps generally and will really help solidify the cannabis marketplace with regulators. And we'll see that the cannabis industry in the cannabis marketplace in general will start, I believe, to get more of the benefit of the doubt in places where maybe they don't enjoy it as much from regulators. And I think that is one of the things that I've seen a number of places that regulators, in order to comply with social distancing, yet keep this essential service open. Have had to relax some of the strictures on the cannabis industry, for instance, curb side pick up.
[00:20:03] Some states have implemented delivery home delivery, which they hadn't before, or they had been reticent about rolling out or delayed in rolling out, have begun rolling these things out because, of course, Corbetts the bigger threat than some sort of fear of diversion or whatever it was for that.
[00:20:19] And by the cannabis industry living up to this. So by being granted the ability to operate with less of the traditional strictures by. Having to operate with these newer structures from Koban, being able to do that, well, I could see some of this relaxation over time being regulatory relaxation being solidified over time. And that that would be beneficial because there's a lot of costs that go with the overregulation that we see in a lot of states.
[00:20:45] So I think that moving forward, we'll see a reduction in what we've been able to beta test a number of states, parts of the supply chain that we haven't before. For instance, delivery or a black sales process, if those remain in place. Then we're going to see a greater acceptance of cannabis in general. We'll see better economics, we'll know, et cetera, et cetera.
[00:21:07] So by the Kym's industry responding to the call of the public sector due to coal. But I think we're going to see them do we're going to see benefits long term for that. So that's one of the things for the marketplace. And we're gonna see then we lay onto that. Consumers are going consumption increases and reducing stigma. Reducing it rhetorically intensifies itself in a good way. Now, at the same time, we're going to see I think we're going to see a lot of M&A in general as a number of companies, larger companies just couldn't write about. And some of the things that they would have had to do to right their balance sheet in this coveted environment is actually more challenging. Right. The sale of assets would be more difficult. So the burden on underperforming or non-performing assets kind of continues. So they're they're gonna be hurting. And I could see that some that there'll be a number of assets will start to trade as we come out of lockdown and we'll see new players. Generally, I also think that the investor preference is not going to return to where it's been. I think investors are going to be really focused on operational performance rather than acquisition of some sort of proxy of national market share, which I think is driving investors now is going to be bottom line.
[00:22:17] It's going to be fundamentals to investors, going to be looking at the Agnone and be looking at superb operators who are going to I hope we will see two things, low cost ninja producers, guys that can produce two standards that are required by important regulations but are able, through their skills to produce at a lower cost. Obviously, they're going to be rewarded. Some of the bells and whistles will go away. I think less and less people will think they need to have dispensary's look like CRT shops because that was always sort of nice. I mean, who doesn't like being in one of those? They're great. But I mean, come on, it is not fundamentals. I don't think we're gonna go to, like, head shop looking. Maybe there'll be a rationality. That's one area that I'm really interested in is with the sort of reward for low, low cost production without sacrificing quality, accessible gold.
[00:23:02] Then the investors start to finally maybe take a further step and in the marketplace take a further step. And I think my police already have in really blessing and rewarding the sort of high quality, smaller craft, ultra premium producers. I think they will. So, as I said, I think that the transition here into the future is going to be one of focus investors focusing on quality of operations, quality of life, as opposed to quantity of operation, which is what it was that was the previous 24 months were all about. Up until we got that sort of cash crunch, you know. Right. The investor worm has turned.
[00:23:42] They're no longer thinking, yeah, man, just get as big as you can. They're now thinking, yeah, man, show me that you can be sustainable and that you can really make things work. And that's not the end of the world.
[00:23:53] Either that the federal another thing that we see and I think is very important is like what happened to the trajectory of federal love right before we saw the states act, the banking act obviously on hold. Who knows what happens in this election? Who knows what happens tomorrow? But I don't think those are coming. I don't think those are coming anytime soon. And that's a bummer, because U.S. capital markets would be really great avenues for high performing cannabis companies to be able to access. I don't think that's going to happen. Banking will remain a little bit of a challenge, but good news there. I think that the more the more intelligent banks that have been watching the space realize that the risk. Right. The likelihood of a federal sanction for participating, for banking would cannabis companies and quality regulatory environments is exceedingly low. And so I think we'll see that irrespective of the of the banking bill not passing. We'll see some larger banks start to get into the space. And that'll be a good thing because that will actually also drive down banking fees, which is another yoke that the industry has to bear. We'll see that.
[00:24:56] And then, you know, we'll still see without without federal legalization.
[00:25:01] We'll still see this experiment of the states have I mean, yeah, we won't get maybe the benefits of the types of supply chains that can focus cannabis to where it most cheaply grown. But I don't know why. I look at many crops come indoors in many states, they micro greens, fasal, they're they're not growing indoors more and more. So I'm not so sure. Ultimately, the agricultural consequences, but by the states continuing to evolve, there's a lot of upside. The public sector being able to look over each other shoulder as states go maybe to cooperate with regard to aligning regulation. I think these types of. And then the industry responding in kind in these states and learning how I think that that Rand experiment of federalism will maintain it will have to be maintained. And I think the good part about that is that it will continue to inform what the contours of a uniform legal and regulatory approach may look like.
[00:25:55] And what do you think for a company in the cannabis space right now? What would be your kind of areas of focus or suggestions of how they kind of handle the next six to 12 months in order to kind of get through this, get to the other side, be in a position of relative strength, reasonable strength. Given everything is going on so they can kind of take advantage of, you know, what sounds like, you know, well, we'll be a reasonably healthy market once we kind of get through all this. Yes.
[00:26:19] All right. So the first thing is this.
[00:26:21] There is a lot of upside to be had, a lot of it to be done by listening to your regulators during this coalbed period. Right. During our abjuring hour, what we're going to need to do to operate. Listen to the regulators work, what the regulators really embraced, the spirit that's animating these regulators proactively. I think that will help generally the future. Right. I don't buy a lot of goodwill and I think we're seeing that. Keep up the good work, guys. That's one. Two large cannabis companies are going to have to right size their balance sheets.
[00:26:51] I mean, they're going to have to divest of underperforming assets or non-performing assets, which which raise a really interesting question. If you're an operator that's operating in some very successfully in some of the large adult use markets as well as the medical markets, and you're under constraint and or the escalators off and the firehose of capital is not there.
[00:27:13] What do you do?
[00:27:14] I think maybe what we what we may see and what might be intelligent to do is balance away even from the medical position that recycle those assets and capital use, expanding, interviewed, known or very likely about you, Mark. So for all the place holders that you might have out there, even if on an intra state market basis, medical basis, you're doing OK with that? When you look at it across the balance sheet, you same store at. Right. You're with your with your W stuff. It's just it's going to be a shade of B.W. So maybe we should think about repositioning towards the most lucrative markets and that course cost more. It's gonna be as much quality as as much quality as you can squeeze out of the lowest cost. Yet if you're a cultivator, grams per square foot, unless you're maybe going, it's going to be key. I haven't seen the brands. Yeah, we we we had different there. There was an interesting phenomenon is gonna be are we going to see like a significant amount of brand loyalty emerge?
[00:28:15] I'm not sure the data are there to support the idea that what we do see a lot of brand loyalty, extreme brand loyalty, so that that does compel more, would compel a company into into thinking more about really lowering costs.
[00:28:30] I think I think cost is a good driver for Stan Brand, except for maybe a few outliers and they know who they are. So with that, we had we had a real focus on like brands for a while.
[00:28:41] And we will can need to continue to see a focus on brands, but those brands are not going to be there, that they're not going to obviate the need to primarily be driven by as low cost quality plays. You can be.
[00:28:56] Yeah, it's going to be interesting. I think we're as you mentioned, you know, there's so many factors here in terms of what this kind of coming out of covered looks like, the pace of it, you know, incremental it is. You know, to the extent that we've got tons of future shocks, the system with reoccurrences and hotspots and stuff. But, yeah, I think, you know, companies need to be prepared for several different possibilities, but making sure that they've got at least some strategies for how they're going to deal with these outcomes. And, you know, it is a week A, we don't know. B, you know, it's going to impact things and you can't just have one rely upon one particular strategy. But, yeah, it's interesting. I think the cannabis spaces, an interesting one to look at in terms of just kind of overall economic impact, of course, of it and where it's going.
[00:29:36] Right. Bruce, I really do. I think that that that that campus could be actually a really interesting luck here because it has had the public support through a crisis like this. So that public support as we as we go through what might be the sort of oscillating future of relaxing and restricting in various places the amount of social access that can happen, the cannabis companies will be impacted in the how of continuing operations in each one of those. But like day to day operations, whereas other industries are going to if they, you know, other issues are going to be better subject to actual closures are going to have to be figured out how of survival in periodic closures. So cannabis Jabba's can be really interesting because it's going to be Dorda, but it is going to have to respond to that sort of oscillating development and we get really on top of this virus.
[00:30:23] Excellent. This has been a pleasure. If people want to find out more about you, about the work that you do.
[00:30:27] The best way to get that information, they could go to New Jersey. If no one does. W w. W. New Jersey CIA dot or dot org.
[00:30:35] I'll put the link in the show notes here so people can click through and get that. Yeah. Because that there's been a pleasure. Great conversation. I know there's a lot of what ifs and uncertainty out there, but I think it was really good to kind of map this out. I think there were some interesting ideas and I think some logical sort of possibilities of how this is gonna play out. I'll be curious to stay in touch with you over the coming months and quarters and see how this does play out. And we can kind of check back on our conversation here and see what what remained true and what changed. But I really appreciate the time today. It was really insightful and I appreciate it.
[00:31:02] I am delighted. And it's been an honor and a pleasure as always. Take care.
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