Michael Backes, Co-Founder, Chief Product Officer, PERFECT
Michael Backes is Co-Founder and Chief Product Officer of PERFECT. Michael is a renowned cannabis expert, sought-after speaker, and the author of “Cannabis Pharmacy: The Practical Guide to Medical Marijuana,” which is widely considered to be the go-to book for understanding the medicinal effects of cannabis. He currently serves on the Science & Medical Advisory Board of Maui Grown Therapies, has served on the Cannabis Committee of the American Herbal Products Association, and was a founding board member of the National Cannabis Industry Association. Michael also facilitated the funding for the American Herbal Pharmacopeia’s Cannabis monographs, the basis for cannabis testing requirements in many states.
https://www.perfect-blends.com/
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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
[00:00:01] You're listening to Thinking Outside the Bud where we speak with entrepreneurs investors thought leaders researchers advocates and policymakers who are finding new and exciting ways for cannabis to positively impact business society and culture. And now, here is your host Business Coach Bruce Eckfeldt.
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[00:01:06] Welcome, everyone. This is Thinking Outside the Bud. I'm Bruce Eckfeldt. I'm your host. And our guest today is Michael Backes and he is chief product officer and co-founder at PERFECT and is also the author of Cannabis Pharmacy, which has a new edition coming out. We're gonna learn about that. Excited for this conversation. I love talking with folks in this industry who have some background in research, have some real deep knowledge of the plants and really what it's capable of and what it's not capable of. So I'm excited for the conversation. I'm very curious to hear about Michael's background, his knowledge, what he's doing with perfect with that. Michael, welcome to the program. Thanks so much, Chris. So why don't we talk a little bit about, well, this listening about you first kind of your background professionally and hear about how you got into cannabis and then we'll talk about the business, we'll talk about the book and get into cannabis and talk about the plant and how you know it. What you see its powers are how you see this industry playing out. But let's get to know you first a little bit to get started.
[00:01:59] Well, I came into this kind of through the side door. I had a kind of headache, kind of migrant headaches and wasn't responding to conventional medication. And my neurologist recommended that I try cannabis for it and use cannabis since college. Interesting. When I when I went got my card in California medical card and went to a dispensary, they couldn't answer any questions that I had. I mean, none at all. I mean, it was really like it was a consumer experience that I'd never had. This kind of my lawyer and. And so I just drove into it and I'd work with the author, Michael krait, and for a long time and had done a lot of research for him and had gotten pretty adept at research. And so I started to research the plant and it just became fascinated with it and kind of became even more fascinated with the fact that a lot of what the trajectories in the 19th century to understand the plant had been derailed with prohibition. And what did a few people in Europe had kind of, you know, picked up the torch and and started to research the plant again in the in the 90s. And then this was all new information, not only to me, but to a lot of people in California. And so I got deeply, deeply interested in the plant and ended up starting a dispensary in 2006 in California and really, really got it in. I have learned a lot. I've been involved in things like cannabis analytics and breeding and just understanding it. So here's what you're saying.
[00:03:30] You got into it as is reading the research. Is this going and visiting farms? Is this, you know, in the lab, like looking at specimens, like how did you actually get, quote unquote, get to know the plant?
[00:03:40] Well, I mean, at first, you know, I went I went north in California to the Emerald Triangle and visited farms and started to look at the plant and start to ask questions and tried to differentiate, you know, what's out there, what's being grown. Why is it being grown now and then? Then the next logical question was, well, what's in the plant that explains these differences that people are reporting? And then started to kind of reach out on the Internet to people like Robert Call, clerk who had written the book Marijuana Botany back in the 1970s and ended up becoming friends. And I edited his book that he wrote with Dr. Mark Merlin called Cannabis Evolution Ethnobotany. And there was University California Press Book and met Ethan Russo, who was the first guy to publish about Turpin effects as part of the chemical entourage that interest cannabis plant produces. And it just got deeper and deeper and deeper because I was just trying to explain the differences that my customers at my dispensary noted about different strains of the plant and and how they work for them.
[00:04:50] And hayim seems like so much of this industry is sort of anecdotal or, you know, use base results base, not sort of scientific based. I mean, what did you notice in terms of similarities between the data you were gathering from your dispensary customers? You know, the feedback you were getting from folks on what the effects were, what the impact of of different types of products and different cultivars and stuff were having on folks and the research you were doing in terms of really understanding the sort of the chemical and biological aspects of the plant. What was matching up, what wasn't matching up or the big kind of things that you were noticing?
[00:05:24] Well, I mean, the big thing is, is that, you know, designations like. T-the and the index were essentially meaningless. You know that when you start to take the plan into the lab and, you know, test it through chromatography and figure out what's in it, you start to see that the plant genetically is kind of hard wired. Each varieties hard wired to produce certain chemistry and that a portion of that chemistry is responsible for its effects. And people have tends to get lost in the weed because, you know, when you hear people talk about the plant, they go, oh, you know, cannabis produces insert the latest numbers or can cannabinoids, you know, 100 turbines et, etc.. But only a portion of those are actually responsible for the pharmacological effects, cannabis. And and there's a lot of misinformation. So like if you if you look up cannabis turbines, you'll always see these charts. It's any inflammatory, any fungal and you know, all these things. But the truth is, you know, anti-fungal, OK? That's the best. Because nobody's using cannabis in any form for its anti-fungal pop.
[00:06:29] Ok. I mean, serious like. You know, take the pulse of cannabis and put it on your atheletes. Yeah, exactly right. Mainly that's not happening. And so what it is, is that people are taking cell study and as best animal studies and trying to extrapolate this data often in doses that human beings would never be exposed to and trying to extrapolate that to effects.
[00:06:52] And it's kind of nonsense. And so the thing I've been obsessed with for the last five or six years is trying to excuse the term, weed out the bad information. So start to get a clearer picture of actually how the plant works in certain with certain entourages, certain combinations of chemicals to do certain things.
[00:07:11] And what are the big like? I mean, I don't know how hard or how complicated these get, but are there are there ones that really end up having kind of the big impact or controlling the bulk of the impact of the effect that it has on patients?
[00:07:23] Yeah, sure. THC, OK. THC is potent and everybody knows it works. And the thing is, is that often people will ascribe facts to like turkeys when in fact, what's being noticed is clearly the effects of THC. Now, on the other hand, people will say, oh, my gosh, I feel so much better when I take CBD when in fact they're taking doses so low that it may not be moving the needle at all.
[00:07:51] So is there some placebo effect? I mean, people are taking these things. I mean, it's it's it's it is the placebo. But what's really ironic is, is that we're starting to understand the mechanism of placebo effect. And the weird thing about that is, is that the mechanism of placebo effect seems to be mediated by the body's own endocannabinoid system. And and so it's a really, really weird thing because it's interesting. It's saying like you only see the mirror when you look in the mirror and that's it. It's like it's kind of a paradox. And what it means is that what we say about cannabis affects may profoundly influence the noted effects. Yeah, it's it's pretty stable. And it's really, really true when you look at CBT because people simply aren't taking doses that resemble anything that's been used in clinical trials yet.
[00:08:41] And what what are these doses level? I mean, what are people typically taking now when they when they go and buy a CBD product?
[00:08:47] Well, if there's anything in it, because the problem is to see if it's really tough to keep his solution. And so often, if the company is not manufactured, the CBD, well, any CBD that was in there is sticking to the walls of the glass. So, you know, you've got to dig in and look the inside of the glass and really get it, you know, like break the glass and then scrape the remaining pieces with a razor blade and then take that CBD. I actually don't recommend that you declare to the audience here, we don't want to cut fingers and splinters in your throat.
[00:09:18] But the you look at these like, for example, there's a famous study that was done in Brazil where they were looking at the effects of CBD on social anxiety and the doses that were given to these people because it was very effective with 600 milligrams of CBD. Now, what that would typically do two things. One is you'd really feel it. You'd get what's called mental sedation, which means you'd be a little sick. And lastly, a dose of CBD like that is going to how do I put this delicately increase the speed of bowel transfer. And so it can be problematic. Yeah, but people you know, the thing about it is, is that people will often buy a bottle of CBD tincture where the whole bottle doesn't contain $600. Yet this is these are the doses that are routinely being used in clinical studies to look at the effects of CBD. So it's where, you know, people take fifteen milligrams, yet all the clinical research is done at 600 milligrams.
[00:10:18] And so the bottom line is we've got an incomplete picture of how much CBD you need to get an effective result, at least from clinical sites.
[00:10:27] I guess what's the implication here from a consumer point of view is that you really need to be looking at higher dose CBD products or is this, you know, CBD starts to behave differently when you start combining it with other things and maybe it has maybe you do have some kind of entourage or facts or enhancing effects that are beneficial or do have it.
[00:10:44] You know, people have been noting effects from CBD at 2.5 milligrams for a long time. The question is, are those real? I mean, I've had lots of people who take low dose CBD and say they move better, they feel better, they have less anxiety. So maybe that's good enough in itself there, but it isn't often supported by what we see in the lab. So it's a bit of a paradox. And it's one of the reasons, actually, that the FDA might help us a little bit here or the National Institutes of Health might help us, because we definitely need more research. I think that's the real takeaway. Yeah, it's not so much that there's rampant fraud, but I think there's we just don't know and talk to us about the research.
[00:11:25] I mean, I know that, you know, because of, you know, schedule one listening as cannabis, as a Schedule 1 controlled substance, you know, has limited research. You know, historically, now that we've got CBD, you know, on the farm bill and you know that some of that stuff is opening up, I guess. Have you seen progress on the research side? Are we still kind of in this dearth of real sandvig research? What would change that?
[00:11:45] I mean, what's your sense on why floodgates have now opened? But there's a delay there. OK, so what will happen is that there's an enormous amount of study ongoing, but those results haven't been reported in yet. So we'll start to see him very shortly. I mean, I think that the thing is, is that the research community, when they design their experiments, are basing their protocols on what came before. And those doses in case CBD are often much higher than a person would be exposed to. Therefore, I don't know how good an applicable the research is going to be. We'll see. I hope we see these dose ranging studies where you look at the kind of real world use of CBD and scientists start to tease apart what's really happening at those doses. That'll be all.
[00:12:31] Yeah. Now, I mean, it seems like, you know, that general researchers are generally sort of more scientific knowledge and the this is going to help all facets of it, because we are we're kind of it's almost like we're flying blind, not really knowing what we're doing in some of these cases.
[00:12:44] And that's why I started perfect, because what I was trying to do, there's an enormous amount of talk about effects based cannabis where, you know, you take the right formulation of cannabis and you can get sleepy, you take the right formulation of cannabis and it can lift your mood. You take the right formulation of cannabis and it can help you focus and actually reduce distraction. You take the right dose of cannabis in formulation and it may make you more associational, more creative and able to come up with better ideas. And so that's what I started perfect to do, was start to deliver consistent effects to people despite their their level of experience with the plant, because, you know, you can't give the same dose to somebody who's never tried cannabis as somebody who uses it daily because the body reacts to cannabis dose by adjusting the number of receptors that are available for the cannabis to interact with.
[00:13:34] Oh, interesting. Say that again. So as someone uses cannabis, there are actual Khanabad receptors that are going to actually change the number or quality, get the density of those changes in the nervous system.
[00:13:44] And so it's about it makes it more that makes you more or less sensitive to cannabis. It makes you it makes you less sensitive. Got it. And so, you know, for years there's been a poor understanding of cannabis dose. And so cannabis dose became what you could withstand. Yeah, OK. And that led to a lot of, you know, unfortunate reactions to meet people on Bill. No, no, no. I don't use cannabis. No. I tried in college and got way too high. While they were smoking with people who were down regulated, you had exactly reduced receptor density. And therefore, you know, they got smoke under the table. And so what's great is you want. You want to develop cannabis products and education on how to use them. So that doesn't happen. I mean, it's a really fascinating thing about cannabis. Then again, one of the reasons I started this company, perfect was to change the equation. 120 million people in the United States have used cannabis, but only about twenty five million people use it today, which means there's a real revolving doors. You know, you use it when you're young and then when you get serious, you put it aside. That's the common perception and not the case with alcohol. You know, over over 60 percent of the people who've ever used alcohol continue to use it. So cannabis has a tough time keeping its customer base.
[00:14:58] And I think one of the reason is, is, is that these products are formulated so that they don't really provide a safety net so that you can have a dysphoric reaction when you take them. And so the perfect product line we're trying to do is deliver entourages to people in that kind of reduced the likelihood of adverse effects like anxiety.
[00:15:21] We need to think think about cannabis as a low dose that can reduce anxiety at high dose. It can cause. Exactly. This is weird kind of flip flop on the. Yeah, they call that by Pasick Effect. There's act that's actually named in pharmacology. So what we're doing with with perfect is we're doing formulations that use an entourage of cannabis compounds to kind of deliver a more targeted, consistent and pleasant effect. I mean, we're not trying to scare anybody with our products, you know. I mean, it's if, you know, 190 proof meth scal was the only alcoholic beverage available. I don't think you'd see commercials for the Super Bowl.
[00:16:00] Yeah, exactly. So I'm curious, in terms of the products you're developing, what consumers or what segments you are focusing on, or are these people that are just getting into cannabis or these people that are regular cannabis users? And then tell me a little bit about the formulations they fit together. Yeah.
[00:16:14] So what's great is, is that we're actually they're broadly usable. So what you do is you control your dose, you control how much you take, but a novice can use them and somebody who's a regular user can enjoy them as well. And but what we've done is, again, we've have a consistent safety net for that whole range of consumer. And so that when you try a small dose, you get a lighter version of the same effect. And when you take a larger does, you get the same effect just a little bit more intense. But they all have taken these products shares, no hangover effect, the outcome that's on the bottle. And we have a product called Happy Camper and everybody who uses Happy Camper, it seems to get consistent mood elevation. And, you know, it's what we used to call giggle weed. And while Nightcap is like, you know, why are you down at the end of the day and getting restful sleep?
[00:17:05] And I guess what are the I mean, without giving away, sir, your secret sources. But what goes into these formulations that allow you to kind of dial in these experiences or these impacts?
[00:17:13] So a different cannabis cultivars produce different chemistries. And the ones I'm choosing to put in these blends are targeted at these specific outcomes. So I'm using a combination of turbine's and cannabinoids to deliver. It affects that people normally don't get. And the reason they don't normally get them is each cannabis plant is kind of bound by its genes. And so the cannabis plant, because of the genes that it inherits, often won't produce to Terrapins together because those never show up, because those genes never shot together. So, for example, limonene, which is a real common citrus smelling Turpin or Essential and TER Pinelli, they don't show up together in the plant. So when you combine them, you get a really interesting effect. So you have to blend them to get that effect. And that is kind of a peek into the approach we're taking. We're looking at what the cannabis plant can produce and specifically choosing cultivars and blending them together so that when people inhaled them, they get consistent outcomes and it's worked really well. We've done a lot of consumer testing. It's right on the money right now.
[00:18:18] Yeah, that's it. It's almost like like a master mixologist, you know, the different pieces that show up in different cultivars and then not knowing how to combine them in unique ways to get these different differentiate effects.
[00:18:29] Right. And the plant changes crop to crop as far as the amount of Anscombe said it produces. So you have to adjust that. So when people buy a jar of our stuff, it's the same as the last years they got. And that doesn't vary.
[00:18:41] And that's fascinating. So and how do you how do you manage that side of it? I mean, are you do you do your own growing or are you working with particular growers?
[00:18:47] How do you work with particular growers? I use a a good lab so that they can characterize every crop and then we can adjust the formulation for each batch so we get that consistency. Fascinating.
[00:18:58] And how from a distribution and packaging and stuff like that. I mean, I know a lot of this. We are dealing with, you know, agricultural products.
[00:19:06] Right? I mean, there's the the shelf-life, the you know, the plant is going to change or, you know, you're gonna have cheese's the plant over time. How do you make sure that what you actually grow and process and produce in terms of your product actually gets to the customer domain?
[00:19:19] So maybe that's maybe that's the biggest insight we've had, because what we realized is even though cannabis is a fragile product, it's not treated like a fragile product. And that's because until recently it was prohibited. Just getting the product was the big deal. But what we realized is a lot of these compounds are really fragile. And after the plan is harvested, unless certain things are done, they start to degrade really quick. And the main thing is they're not kept cold. I mean, trust me, pick a head of lettuce. Yeah. And keep it room temperature for six weeks and try to make a salad. Nobody will eat it. No. And the thing is, is that so one of the biggest things we learned with perfect was keep things cold from the time it's harvested until the time it gets to you. Our products will be kept cold in the store because that helps us maintain the chemistry. So we have some other little tricks we're doing to help maintain that chemistry. And I'm sure leveraging what the plant does itself to protect that chemistry. But the whole thing is, is that we have this process we call. Ultra fresh. And it's a we have a patent pending on it.
[00:20:29] And we're really excited about its impact because for the first time, the average consumer will taste what cannabis is like if they were in the drawing shed right after harvest. And because a couple of these compounds, particularly ones like Mirhossein, the most common Turpin and cannabis. It basically disappears within 70 days after harvest. Wow. So while most people are told, oh, mere seems a really important Turpin, they they're not getting as they never experienced it. It's gone by the time it gets to them. And the reason because cannabis is often indifferently handled and it really isn't treated like a perishable product. And trust me, the lab results show it's a really perishable product. I mean, THC and CBD, they're pretty sturdy, but it's Turpin sees essential oils are really delicate. That's why you smell them. They're coming off the plant. Exactly. And the one thing, you know, you to find a bag of weed in your drawer and you smell it. If anything, it smells a little bit like, hey, you know, and it smells nothing like it did when it was harvested. And what we're trying to deliver is that real fresh harvested experience that we call Ultracor. Awesome.
[00:21:37] I'm curious as you've kind of built out your business. What are some of the other challenges or where things that have come up that you've had to overcome in terms of really be able to do this, you know, create a a product you can really take to market in a consistent way, you know, in a way that's going to deliver the experience you want for consumers.
[00:21:52] I mean, I think the biggest thing is getting control of the supply chain. And so the thing is, if you're going to sell caviar, you know, you don't start a hot warehouse. It's. And the thing is at fault. We're trying to sell them the best cannabis experience. We really have to know how it's being treated at every step from the farm to the consumer. And so that's that's been the biggest challenge. You know, when we fast and we have to be cold, everything has to be cold. And so that that poses a lot of challenges, but it's working. So we think when we launch in February, we think we're going to be able to deliver the promise.
[00:22:29] And I mean, tell me about what else you kind of see in the industry at this point. Where do you think that's market's going? I mean, I certainly think the kind of the higher end, the premium products have, you know, some interesting strategic value as far as this market develops. And, you know, potentially as we run into kind of different regulatory situations and structures in the particularly in the U.S. here, what what do you see as being kind of the the advantage or the strategy of focusing on this part of the market? And what do you think is going to happen with the cannabis market in general?
[00:22:58] As far as things change, I mean, I think that our company is one of the first kind of real post prohibition approaches to cannabis. I think that just like alcohol.
[00:23:08] I mean, we're going to take people from, you know, moonshine in jars to McCallan. And there's a big difference. And so, you know, just like an alcohol or wine, high end techniques and looking at how you optimize the experience that the plan is creating and actually get that experience to the consumer becomes the first big shift. And so right now we're seeing a lot of derivative products. So we're seeing products that are easy to use like vaporizers, but aren't necessarily always the highest quality products. Okay. It's like, you know, I look at Penns as hotdogs. They're really good hotdogs out there. OK. But but the thing is, is that it's highly processed and not particularly often well-preserved. And if it is preserved, you don't actually want what they're using to preserve it. And so, yeah, I think there's there's a more you know, I'm sure I'm skipping basically I'm skipping the supermarket and going directly to a Whole Foods high end food model. And I don't want to deliver the freshest, most complete experience. And I think that the industry's just been focused on delivering an experience rather than a highly targeted one.
[00:24:23] Yeah. Now, I just I see so much of the kind of the business focus on how how do I create as much THC, as high as possible, as fast as possible. You know, just to kind of deliver the kind of the raw the raw high experience, not not really looking at more of the craft.
[00:24:36] Right. I mean, I guess the way to describe it is it's like, you know, getting cocktail tips from a drunk under a bridge. I think that the underground has not necessarily provided the best advice. And the money came in and took that advice and helped make products based on potency rather than actual effects. And yeah, I mean, you know, the thing is, it said a lot of these products today, it's like speed eating fudge. All right. The first couple of bites are really interesting.
[00:25:08] And they just took me a second to, like, put myself in that mindset. I get it.
[00:25:14] It's it's just like adds too much. And so these highly concentrated products really have a rather restricted appeal. And that's not the point. The point is not to get as much drug. Possible into you. Yeah, but get the amount of the drug that actually gives you the outcome you're looking for. And again, you know, people haven't really looked at it that way.
[00:25:36] Any any particular kind of things that you're watching in terms of the regulatory ease or kind of the structural aspect of the market here that you think are going to have a big impact on you or the business in general?
[00:25:46] Well, I mean, I think that the liberalisation of cannabis laws has got to come on a federal level. And I think that interstate transport also encourages interstate research. And I think that that's going to be really interesting because you're going to start to see much more of a rich, robust conversation about designing cannabis products. That right now is a little bit haphazard. I mean, you can't just ship a sample. I'm working on Colorado today and say, what do you think? You really have to go and jump through a lot of hoops. I mean, this idea that, you know, you can't make an omelet across state lines. All right. It is really a problem. Yeah. And I think that when that is solved, I think that you're going to see the pace of innovation pick up. You know, I take California to the launch of our product because it's the biggest market. And so I can I can really tested on a lot of different people and I can have a lot of bright people look at it and give me tips on how to make it better.
[00:26:45] Yeah, that makes sense. It's been a pleasure. Michael, if people want to find out more about you, more about perfect, what's the best way to get that information?
[00:26:52] Well, they can draw me a line today. Michael at perfect dash blends dot com. And we'll start the conversation and I'll send you links to our our Web site and and more information as you need it.
[00:27:04] Awesome. I'll make sure that that is in the shadows so people can click through and get that. Thank you so much for taking the time. Today has been a great conversation. I was love talking with people who are passionate about the plant, are knowledgeable at the plant and are doing interesting in and out of things in the space. So thanks for taking the time.
[00:27:20] Thanks. Bruce is really fun.
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