Kirk Evans, Co-founder, Creative Director, Sherpa
Kirk Evans is the owner and Creative Director at Sherpa, a Portland-based web development and SEO (Search Engine Optimization) agency. Their focus is on supporting cannabis and hemp brands in the online domain.
An early enthusiast of web technology, Evans began designing websites in his late teens. By his twenties, he transitioned to a career in graphic design, when he began working for some of the largest apparel brands and ad agencies in the world. In 2015, Kirk and his business partner started Sherpa. Both had been active proponents of legalization and wanted to make a difference in the cannabis industry by fusing their backgrounds in design and technical SEO.
Since its inception, Sherpa has worked with over 100 cannabis, CBD and ancillary clients on projects ranging from branding and packaging design to technical SEO and content writing.
https://www.workwithsherpa.com/
https://www.instagram.com/sherpacreativeagency/
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
[00:00:01] You're listening to Thinking Outside the Bud where we speak with entrepreneurs investors thought leaders researchers advocates and policymakers who are finding new and exciting ways for cannabis to positively impact business society and culture. And now, here is your host Business Coach Bruce Eckfeldt.
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[00:01:06] Welcome, everyone. This is Thinking Outside the Bud. I'm Bruce Eckfeldt. I'm your host. And our guest today is Kirk Evans. He is co-founder and creative director of Sherpa. And they are a cannabis focused design marketing branding agency. We're going to talk a little bit more about that. It's a fascinating space, the whole situation we're in and cannabis with legal structure or the legal situation we're in, federal and states makes marketing and advertising and getting word out there actually quite interesting. So I'm excited for this conversation with that. Kurt, welcome to the program.
[00:01:37] Thanks so much for having me, Bruce. Appreciate your time.
[00:01:40] Yeah. Well, so let's learn a little bit more about you and your background. And tell us a little bit about Sherpa. And then we can we can kind of get into the meat of it here. What's the story? How did you get into cannabis? How did you start Sherpa?
[00:01:50] Sure.
[00:01:50] So about four years ago, me and my business partner Tom both left our corporate jobs and decided to start a web design agency. My background being in graphic design and web design and his background being in technical SVO. And shortly after we started, we were approached by an Oregon dispensary to build a Web site for them and kind of had this, you know, light bulb Excelsior moment where, you know, cannabis had been something that I had been an advocate for for a long time. And, you know, I just kind of turned to Tom and said, hey, maybe we should just focus on on this niche industry that's that's up and coming and work with these kinds of clients. So four years later, here we are. And and still, still plugging along, doing well and excited for the future of this industry.
[00:02:40] Yeah, well, it's a fascinating space to be in. So I guess it helped help people understand why some of these things are challenging. I mean, we've given cannabis and and the laws and stuff like that. How does it impact kind of branding, brand strategy, marketing, advertising, MCO Water ordered some of the challenges you end grappling with when you get into this space?
[00:03:01] Yeah, I would say first and foremost, one of the big challenges that we face over. Over the last four years is really trying to destigmatize cannabis through design. I think if you talk to anybody in middle America that that has been around less of cannabis culture, you know, their idea of what cannabis brands look like or what cannabis users identify with, you know, goes to the old tropes of tie-dye and bubbly letters and things like that. So, you know, that that's been kind of the first and foremost challenge for us has been to sort of move towards more traditional corporate type branding. But also, you know, how do you set yourself apart when there's thousands of brands? So that's really the challenge that we face regularly. And then, you know, certainly from a marketing perspective, it's there are a lot of obvious regulations and things that you can't do as a cannabis business. That other more traditional businesses are able to do. So finding ways to to promote your brands, promote brands has been you know, it's it's always changing. There seem to be new laws and new terms and conditions on social media and things like that that are constantly shifting. So we really have to keep our ear to the ground and stay up to date with what's going on as far as those regulations go.
[00:04:27] Yeah, it's such a dynamic space and it can it can be both kind of challenging and can create a lot of problems. It also creates a lot of opportunities. If you can figure out how to navigate those things effectively and create, you know, strong programs, you know, to build audience, build, build awareness, you know, in those challenges lies, you know, innovation. So interesting. So tell us a little bit about the branding process. You know, when you when you sit down with a cannabis company, what is what is it you're looking to do? What is a process look like? What questions are you're asking? How do you help them really kind of figure out what their brand is and how they're going to message it and tell the story?
[00:05:03] Sure. Well, so as a web design focused agency, we don't really do branding in-house anymore. We we did initially. My background was in branding and graphic design. So but when we sat down with a client that's looking for us to build a Web site, you know, the first thing we ask is make sure that there is a full brand guideline built out. And, you know, at this point in our career, we really. They strive to work with companies that either are willing to go the extra mile and spend the extra money on a full built out brand guideline. Yes. Or, you know, have a already something in place that strong that we feel is strong. And that's why we've partnered with companies like Potency, who we actually share an office with here in Portland.
[00:05:52] They're a fantastic branding agency. And so, you know, if you have a client come to us and they they don't have a brand, we're we're more than happy to pass them off to to our partners here to make sure that we get something that's that's really strong and visually appealing, because without that, you can't really build a full online presence.
[00:06:12] And what goes into that process? I mean, when you when you're kind of figuring out what what are you looking to achieve with a Web site, you know, actions, you want people to take, content you want them to interact with. What are some of the things you're looking at or or strategies you're using to create effective web presence?
[00:06:28] Yeah. You know, I'd say more recently we've started to implement some things like conversational marketing on Web sites. So quizzes for users, especially in the CBD world where, you know, these companies are shipping to all 50, 50 states and sometimes even abroad. And there's still a a knowledge gap. So I feel like a lot of the things that we're doing now with web design are making it so that a less experienced user feels more confident and has more trust in a brand on their Web site, as opposed to just saying, you know, here's our CBD products by them. You can have a nice brand, but if you don't build trust with a consumer, you're going to have a hard time converting those sales.
[00:07:15] Yeah. And if you're, you know, I guess, you know, and any Web site, it's going to have certain challenges when you start dealing with cannabis based businesses. What are some of the things you need to think about to make it work for cannabis in terms of, if you like, educating customers, if it's the fact that you're you're in this fairly new, evolving industry? What are some of the things that make it unique when you're dealing with cannabis based websites?
[00:07:39] Yeah, I mean, I would say you hit the nail on the head. The educational aspect is huge. You know, I would also say for cannabis businesses, again, because there's so many people coming into the market, not only as retailers, but product brands.
[00:07:53] So really just having a differentiator and and really trying to create something that's dynamic and not not a static experience for them is it is really important, you know, on the the the less pretty back end of things. The other part of our business that we focus on is MCO. And that's something that is, you know, another piece of a of a marketing mix. So it's something that helps drive people to your Web site. And if you can get them to the Web site and capture them with, you know, whether that be conversational marketing or just a dynamic Web experience, they're going to tend to stick with your product line for the long term. And, you know, that's the ultimate goal, is to build brand loyalty.
[00:08:40] Now, talk to us about some of the educational pieces. I mean, I guess how how do you mean something? Some of this is based on the customers they're trying to reach. Right. If you're putting on the segment or their core customer or the ideal customer that the company has. But what are some of the kind of educational things that that you've been able to do online or examples of how you've used the Web experience to to help with some kind of educational objective or an educational component to the experience?
[00:09:04] Sure. So, I mean, I would say the easiest and most simple way that we educate people is through a blog. You know, we have content writers on staff are lead content writer Yelena, who's wonderful, is also the director of education at a wonderful dispensary here in Portland, Farma, who is widely recognized as having this great education program. So a lot of times when we take on a client. Not only are we writing their entire brand voice and all of the Web page content, but we're making plans to continually blog and educate their consumers. And whether that be, you know, with dosage and how to consume their products, what goes into their products, you know, as far as just building that trust like I spoke of earlier. I think working with with companies and this is especially relevant to the CBD realm, is that where we try and work with companies that care about where they're sourcing and really, if possible, we try and work with companies that are vertically integrated. So they're farming the product, whether that be organically or not. Generally, most of our farmer clients are organic farmers. They're processing it or using a reputable source to process and they're making their products by hand. And so I think those types of customers that that have that vertical integration. Care deeply about the plant and the products that they're putting out. That's ultimately one of the best ways to to relate to a customer and build trust.
[00:10:39] And some of the other platforms, the stuff you're working on, I'm assuming, you know, the Web site is just one kind of part of a digital presence. How do you I guess to what extent are you looking at other platforms or other other ways that our brand is going to show up or interact? What are some strategies or personal things you've learned about how to effectively work with with kind of broader digital presence for our brand?
[00:11:05] Sure. So, you know, there are some exciting new things happening outside of just web design and MCO. One of the big things that that we're starting to see that's becoming available is programmatic advertising. And for those out there that are unfamiliar with that, it's essentially that big brother thing that happens sometimes when you're talking about something in particular. And then you have an ad served to you on, you know, say a a large mainstream Web site. You know, in the CBD and even cannabis retail realm, they're starting to become these large databases of users, anonymized users that allow a programmatic agency to design campaigns that are either location specific or even nationwide, where we can serve digital ads to potential clients. So we have a great partner that we've just teamed up with up in Seattle called Program Metrics. They have a background in cannabis as well, being that they're their founders is an owner of dispensaries and in the Seattle area. So, you know, we've seen firsthand what the power of running ad campaigns like that is. And I really think we're just right at the precipice of being able to utilize these more mainstream marketing avenues. Other than that, you know, obviously social has been huge for the entirety of the cannabis industry being, you know, recreational and recreational states. But there's obviously restrictions on on social. So we're starting to see things open up a little bit. There's been you know, you can sometimes get away with running advertising campaigns for CBD brands as long as you're not showing product or ingestion of products. So I think that things are starting to loosen up. And certainly I'm sure that has a lot to do with just all of the the newer regulations federally that we're seeing, like the Safe Banking Act. And just yesterday we had, you know, the the House passed kind of a preliminary measure on legalization. So I think as things change into legislative the legislative branch, where we're going to see things start to change as far as regulations and marketing.
[00:13:21] What are some things cannabis based business looking to build out a web presence ordered some of the questions. But you know, someone in that situation facts themselves, process they should do. You know, people they should talk to tell us a little bit about advice you give to folks that are looking to either build out or upgrade, revamp their Web presence.
[00:13:39] Yeah. I mean, I would say that one of the first things I always tell somebody, especially a startup trying to get into cannabis, is that, you know, you have to spend the money on the brand and the web presence in order to really have longevity. And without those things, with with the market saturation that we're seeing all across the country, I really think that some of these startups that aren't putting money into these things are going to have a really hard time. We just we feel like branding is is such a core part of what creates good brand, you know, good brands, obviously good ending. But, you know, we we see that. I feel that there's 85 to 90 percent of companies coming to market that really it appears as though they didn't spend the time or money. And ultimately a consumer, whether or not they know anything about branding or Web sites, they are affected by by those choices, by these companies. So when somebody does spend that money on the front end to create a brand, it's it's really powerful in the long run.
[00:14:48] Now, let's talk a little bit about the L-CIO side. I mean, what does it give it? Give us a quick, you know, basics on how SVO works and then let's talk about it. How can be leveraged for cannabis based companies? What would sort of explain SVO in general and then we'll talk about cannabis?
[00:15:03] Yeah. So I mean SVO as a just a basic concept is essentially optimizing Web site so that it comes up more frequently in search. So we use a number of tools as well as a proprietary checklist for our SVO clients that just make sure the site runs really quickly is not taking up too much. Server power for these search engines and what ultimately happens is that when you when you build a really optimized site with great content, Google sees that it actually saves them server power. So they rank you higher for key terms accordingly. So it can be really powerful for especially cannabis retailers. We have clients all over the country, dispensaries, medical and recreational that utilize SVO. And, you know, ultimately it's it's kind of like the the black sheep of the family, of the marketing family. It's not something that that is that is really it's something that people think about when they're starting a business. I would say. But it is something that's really powerful. And it's one of the few marketing avenues where you actually have analytics to back up the are alive. So, you know, when you buy a billboard for your dispensary and say you pay ten thousand dollars a month for it, you can't really justify what the R-N.Y. Is on that spend unless you're asking every single customer that comes in. Did you find us from the billboard now with SVO? You know, we can see traffic increases and we've even had a few dispensary owners that have come to us and said, hey, you know, our sales are up 50 percent in the last two weeks and we look at their traffic numbers and they're also up 50 percent. So it's it's there is definitely some congruence between MCO and sales.
[00:16:58] Yeah, yeah. Really kind of time together. And then so for cannabis companies, how can they kind of leverage this, you know, in terms of as a kind of a marketing tool?
[00:17:06] Well, I mean, truth be told, they can leverage it by just doing it in the first place. I mean, truthfully, you know, our sales person has probably looked at, you know, five thousand websites in cannabis and we kind of run them through an initial audit. And when it comes down to it, ninety five percent of businesses are not utilizing SVO to the level that we do it. Some of them may do the kind of simple meta tags, all its titles and things of that nature, but they're not really doing the full optimization. And, you know, it's disappointing, certainly, but it's also a huge advantage to companies that do utilize it.
[00:17:46] Yeah, I can see that it really kind of differentiates you or give you a strategic advantage if you make it a core part of your strategy. Absolutely.
[00:17:53] Give us some examples of types of companies you've worked with, types of challenges. You've you've overcome or you've you've sort of solutions that you've developed for companies using web technologies.
[00:18:03] Sure. So, you know, as I as I mentioned earlier, we started out working with dispensaries and really focused on our kind of regional markets initially four years ago.
[00:18:14] And, you know, since then, we've worked with a number of different kinds of ancillary businesses, whether it be smoking technology companies, hemp consultants, a number of other, you know, even even a women's focused medical marijuana doctor in Florida. So a number of different kinds of businesses. And then really over the last year and a half to two years as CBD has taken off, we've really shifted to that being a big core part of our business. So we still work with companies all over the country in different realms of cannabis. You know, even starting to get into we we actually recently branded and built a Web site for a another marketing company that's specific to CBD. So, you know, kind of coming full circle there. But, you know, some of the challenges and the things that we've overcome are just mostly related to, you know, building a portfolio. I mean, there's there's a lot of people doing what we do now in cannabis. I would say four years ago when we started, there were only a few agencies focusing on cannabis. And now we see them pop up regularly. So, you know, it took a while to to really build that portfolio and have that base underneath us. That was one of the biggest challenges for us, for our businesses. It's just been constantly shifting our approach and how we recommend marketing services to our clients.
[00:19:41] And what what strategies are you using to market yourselves? I mean, what have you found as being effective in terms of actually reaching these cannabis companies? And where are you finding them? What's the what are the channels that are working best for you?
[00:19:52] Well, certainly our FCO is is really top notch. So, you know, we get calls all day long from some companies all over the country. You know, we also really invest heavily in content marketing. So we're always blogging and trying to, you know, give free information to these clients. We've had we've had people that are relatively new clients that have come to us and said, I've read most of your blogs. I just it was so helpful to me when I'm thinking about starting this business. So we just focus on being a resource. We're not trying to you know, our goal is to be. Friendly customer service, forward agency. And I think that that's what gets lost in a lot of other companies that are that are like ours.
[00:20:35] Yeah. And tell us about what you see kind of going on in the industry at this point. You know, as everything's fairly dynamic. But what are the big ones that you're kind of keeping keeping tabs on or watching, you know, as they unfold that you think are really going to drive impact in business, that you do the business of your clients that you need to be aware of?
[00:20:55] Sure. Well, I mean, obviously, we're always keeping up with what's going on federally legislation wise. But most of our focus now is really getting into these new markets early so that Michigan's and Illinois and the Missouri's and you know, as new states open up, there's obviously a huge need for what our company does.
[00:21:17] But beyond that, you know, we really we try and explain to people because obviously to a T. You say multi-layer with that, I assume.
[00:21:25] Yeah. The banking issues around what you can deduct and not deduct.
[00:21:29] Right. And so, you know, a lot of companies are hesitant to spend marketing dollars on things that they they're not sure of or they don't know that much about.
[00:21:38] So our job is really to make sure that they understand that even though they can't write off this marketing expense like MCO or webdesign, that it's something that's really just. It's so important because, you know, when you have a hundred thousand people visiting your website in a given month, having a good user experience and and being able to educate and build that brand loyalty and awareness is just incredibly important. And it's something that I would say most business owners don't really have time to look at their Google analytics regularly. It's it's incredibly powerful. And we just really try to be a a resource for our clients.
[00:22:19] So I'm fascinated that you've kind of pivoted into this kind of space.
[00:22:23] And it's something, you know, we talk a lot or a fair amount on the program is, you know, companies that have, you know, that our product or service companies and other spaces, you know, somewhat adjacent or they see an opportunity to pivot into cannabis and just kind of use your experience, your your kind of takeaways from from having done that. What advice or what what thoughts would you give folks who are, you know, in a in a product or service line that is not cannabis specific, but they see an opportunity to kind of pivot or to create a cannabis version or two to become a more cannabis focused company. What kind of work for you? What didn't work for you? What were some of the challenges you had in terms of making that decision or making that pivot? And what advice would you give to folks that are thinking about it?
[00:23:06] Well, I would say our pivot is is different than what I would suggest to a potential product or another service company or a retailer. But, you know, our pivot was essentially, again, we started our agency and then dispensary came to us. It wasn't as much of a pivot as, hey, we need to learn as much as we can about this industry because it was so new at that point. You know, Oregon had just legalized at the end of 2015. So we you know, we had a lot to learn and we had a lot of research to do and certainly looked at our, you know, our peers and competitors and to see what they were doing. You know, as far as a product's brand or a retailer, I would just say take your time, do your research, see what what your competition is doing in the same way that we did, because ultimately, you know, again, you want to set yourself apart and, you know, without taking that time and really having that forethought, it's really hard to make a splash if people want to find out more about you, about Sherpa.
[00:24:11] What's the best way to get that information?
[00:24:12] Yeah. So you can find us online at www.workwithsherpa.com or on Instagram Sherpa Creative Agency. And we're all on all the other platforms as well. If you just search for Sherpa. And just a quick note, we're going to be co-sponsoring a big event at M.J. because the share. So that's gonna be kind of our jump off point for our new brand. And we're really excited to show people what we've got up our sleeves.
[00:24:40] Awesome. Kirk, this been it's been fun. It's been educational. I think this whole marketing brand, you know, web presence, online commerce, like all that stuff is is big and it's just going to get bigger for cannabis as this market matures and people are gonna figure out how to conduct more business as well. I appreciate the time. It's been educational. Thank you. Thanks so much, Bruce.
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